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Thread: Feedback: Changelog 10/21/2016

  1. #41
    Blue Byte Gamedesign Team BB_Alex's Avatar
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    Hi again,

    the category/type "offensive" is required for a better representation of skills and traits. Vargus, Nusala and Anslem each have a unique trait. Those generals are basically a test case for a skill tree for generals. They will show us, what is technically feasible and what has to be improved in terms of representation. They also will show us, how such skills might impact the balancing.

    During the development one important topic came up. There was a need for an additional layer to allow a proper representation and balancing, while still keeping the diversity of those skills. This additional layer was the unit category/type.

    Defensive (hitpoints focus)
    Recruit, Militia, Soldier, Elite Soldier, Swordsman, Mounted Swordsman

    Offensive (damage focus)
    Bowman, Longbowman, Crossbowman, Marksman, Armored Marksman

    Swift (first strike)
    Cavalry, Knight, Mounted Marksman

    Heavy (last strike, high damage)
    Canonneer, Besieger

    This classification should be usable for enemy units, too. On top it allows a more clear representation of the target priority during combat.

    In addition there was a need to rename one of the two abilities. "attack weakest first" became "Flanking". The functionality did not change, and the renaming makes representation with text and icons easier. The second ability "Splash Damage" remains.

    This is still in progress and might change. There are more things, which have to be taken into account. All three generals require additional balancing changes, which will define their attributes like hitpoints, accuracy, damage, initiative, capacity and maybe even change their abilities (flanking, splash damage).

    Have fun
    BB_Alex
    Last edited by BB_Alex; 26.10.16 at 10:06.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB_Alex View Post
    In addition there was a need to rename one of the two abilities. "attack weakest first" became "Flanking". The functionality did not change, and the renaming makes representation with text and icons easier. The second ability "Splash Damage" remains.

    This is still in progress and might change. There are more things, which have to be taken into account. All three generals require additional balancing changes, which will define their attributes like hitpoints, accuracy, damage, initiative, capacity and maybe even change their abilities (flanking, splash damage).
    Hi BB_Alex,

    There's now 3 terms for "attack weakest first". old generals has "attack weakest first", new generals have "Flanking" and troops have "assassination".

    Also could you explain the difference (if there is) for "Splash damage" and "Area of effect damage". And while you are explaining these could you also explain how the accuracy works in the battle system. I think a Dev diary about the current battle system would be in order.

    Now that you are developing new skills for generals could I suggest a skill that makes the generals move their garrison faster from one place to another making their placement faster.

  3. #43

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    Well , in the light of the new info , a much as I was at first " in love" with Nusala, Vargus appeal to me more now. I better take off the attack weakeast from all those foxes and what not then to give attack weakest to... armored marksman...oh, wait , they already got that.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB_Alex View Post
    Hi again,

    the category/type "offensive" is required for a better representation of skills and traits. Vargus, Nusala and Anslem each have a unique trait. Those generals are basically a test case for a skill tree for generals. They will show us, what is technically feasible and what has to be improved in terms of representation. They also will show us, how such skills might impact the balancing.

    During the development one important topic came up. There was a need for an additional layer to allow a proper representation and balancing, while still keeping the diversity of those skills. This additional layer was the unit category/type.

    Defensive (hitpoints focus)
    Recruit, Militia, Soldier, Elite Soldier, Swordsman, Mounted Swordsman

    Offensive (damage focus)
    Bowman, Longbowman, Crossbowman, Marksman, Armored Marksman

    Swift (first strike)
    Cavalry, Knight, Mounted Marksman

    Heavy (last strike, high damage)
    Canonneer, Besieger

    This classification should be usable for enemy units, too. On top it allows a more clear representation of the target priority during combat.

    In addition there was a need to rename one of the two abilities. "attack weakest first" became "Flanking". The functionality did not change, and the renaming makes representation with text and icons easier. The second ability "Splash Damage" remains.

    This is still in progress and might change. There are more things, which have to be taken into account. All three generals require additional balancing changes, which will define their attributes like hitpoints, accuracy, damage, initiative, capacity and maybe even change their abilities (flanking, splash damage).

    Have fun
    BB_Alex
    Thanks for the clarifications, but I feel you are missing something here.

    I don't know if I'm the mad guy here, but the "Swift" classification makes NO SENSE at all.

    Regardless cavalry, knight and mounted marksmen are all first strike units, cavalry and armored marksmen are the only units having "attack weakest", hence they should be classified as Flanking units instead. Mounted Marksmen are OFFENSIVE units, and they have first strike and splash damage as an extra, exactly like Besiegers have splash damage as an extra ability.

    This list makes no sense to me, and makes it clear that Nusala in this way will probably be the most useless general.

    Also, some further considerations:

    · Armored Marksmen won't benefit being with Nusala, as they already have attack weakest.
    · Knights have close to nothing related to cavalry: they both have first strike, but knights have high damage and don't have splash damage. Moreover, they have higher HPs than BSG, which makes them the equivalent of militia, having first strike instead though, but getting damage instead of Besiegers.
    · Mounted marksmen are the same as knight, with higher damage, first strike, splash damage but low hps.

    Please consider drastically changing this list, I'm wondering if those who wrote it down have a clear idea of what the current meta is and how the system actually works though, because even if it's still a first iteration such logics should be clear already (at least to me).

  5. #45
    Blue Byte Gamedesign Team BB_Alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bri0sheje View Post
    Thanks for the clarifications, but I feel you are missing something here.

    I don't know if I'm the mad guy here, but the "Swift" classification makes NO SENSE at all.

    Regardless cavalry, knight and mounted marksmen are all first strike units, cavalry and armored marksmen are the only units having "attack weakest", hence they should be classified as Flanking units instead. Mounted Marksmen are OFFENSIVE units, and they have first strike and splash damage as an extra, exactly like Besiegers have splash damage as an extra ability.

    This list makes no sense to me, and makes it clear that Nusala in this way will probably be the most useless general.

    Also, some further considerations:

    · Armored Marksmen won't benefit being with Nusala, as they already have attack weakest.
    · Knights have close to nothing related to cavalry: they both have first strike, but knights have high damage and don't have splash damage. Moreover, they have higher HPs than BSG, which makes them the equivalent of militia, having first strike instead though, but getting damage instead of Besiegers.
    · Mounted marksmen are the same as knight, with higher damage, first strike, splash damage but low hps.

    Please consider drastically changing this list, I'm wondering if those who wrote it down have a clear idea of what the current meta is and how the system actually works though, because even if it's still a first iteration such logics should be clear already (at least to me).
    Hi bri0sheje,

    I don't really see the point, that this classification doesn't make any sense.

    Units of the same type don't have to be consistent, when it comes down to abilities (flanking, splash damage). Those abilities are provided regardless of the unit type.
    Swift units are consistent in terms of high initiative (first strike), the same goes for heavy units (last strike). Initiative is an attribute, which means first strike and last strike are no abilities like splash damage or flanking. This leads us to one adjustment of your statement. Mounted Marksmen don't get first strike as an extra, it's a basic attribute.

    Armored Marksman will benefit being with Nusala, since they will recieve the splash damage ability. Combined with the huge amount of damage those units are dealing (100-200), it will become a quite big benefit. Yes Nusala won't provide flanking to those unit, because they do already have this ability.

    Knights do share the high initiative with all other units under the type swift. And all heavy units share the low initiative

    We did consider to drastically change the list several times. We did evaluate shifting those units based on their attributes and abilities. We did evaluate removing the initiative and use first strike and last strike as abilities. We did evaluate to let units share two different types. For example the Mounted Marsman being swift and offensive. All those points lead to issues related to balancing and communication.

    The approach right now is more stable and has relatively minor negative issues, compared to other approaches. At least that's how I think about it.

    Have fun
    BB_Alex

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bri0sheje View Post
    · Armored Marksmen won't benefit being with Nusala, as they already have attack weakest.
    If she grants splash damage they are pretty much the type of units that will benefit the most.

    In majority of cases the weakest units in camp will have 50-70HP, meaning that on average 60-75% of the damage AMs do gets wasted due to no splash.

    The only issue might be identifying the camps where you can actually get that benefit and not lose due to too few defensive units to take the hits.

    Also words of appreciation to Alex for finally showing that there actually is a thought process behind the changes (regardless of whether we agree with it) and the design process isnt all about throwing darts at the board or rolling dice.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB_Alex View Post
    Hi bri0sheje,

    I don't really see the point, that this classification doesn't make any sense.

    Units of the same type don't have to be consistent, when it comes down to abilities (flanking, splash damage). Those abilities are provided regardless of the unit type.
    Swift units are consistent in terms of high initiative (first strike), the same goes for heavy units (last strike). Initiative is an attribute, which means first strike and last strike are no abilities like splash damage or flanking. This leads us to one adjustment of your statement. Mounted Marksmen don't get first strike as an extra, it's a basic attribute.

    Armored Marksman will benefit being with Nusala, since they will recieve the splash damage ability. Combined with the huge amount of damage those units are dealing (100-200), it will become a quite big benefit. Yes Nusala won't provide flanking to those unit, because they do already have this ability.

    Knights do share the high initiative with all other units under the type swift. And all heavy units share the low initiative

    We did consider to drastically change the list several times. We did evaluate shifting those units based on their attributes and abilities. We did evaluate removing the initiative and use first strike and last strike as abilities. We did evaluate to let units share two different types. For example the Mounted Marsman being swift and offensive. All those points lead to issues related to balancing and communication.

    The approach right now is more stable and has relatively minor negative issues, compared to other approaches. At least that's how I think about it.

    Have fun
    BB_Alex
    Then you should see, from that logic, that Nusala is way less useful than the other ones.

    Let me give you a static point: the current problem, in THIS meta, is that enemy camps with Attack weakest OR with Attack weakest + first strike are very hard to defeat.

    This is due to the fact that attack weakest forces you to either use Recruits / Militia as a wall for cannoneers or, similarly, forces you to be UNABLE to use Mounted Marksmen, Armored Marksmen and Marksmen in your fight.

    Again, taking the real practical example of a camp which is extremely hard to defeat: 100 Sword Masters + 100 Desert Marksmen: Sword masters are a huge wall to defeat, Desert Marksmen have attack weakest and normal initiative, so you either use KNIGHTS as a wall for BESIEGERS (but they won't last just THAT much) and Mounted Swordmen as a wall from Sword Masters or you just have NO other alternatives but to lose about 100 armored marksmen.

    Giving splash damage to armored marksmen won't make any difference whatsoever in most of the relevant cases of the current meta, because no one cares to have splash damage and attack weakest on a normal initiative troup. I can, perhaps, foresee the use of such logic against Giants, but they really are the less powerful fairytale troup, and I can't really think of any unit having Last Strike + Splash Damage + Attack weakest right now, though I might be wrong here.

    In a nutshell, I just can't foresee the utility of Nusala as giving splash damage and flanking to normal initiative units is most of the times useless, because by the time they deal their damage normal enemy units already have dealt a huge amount of damage.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
    If she grants splash damage they are pretty much the type of units that will benefit the most.
    What a useful ability if they will probably die before using it

  9. #49

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    The generals looks cool indeed but (as a really high level) I'm a little disappointed at the items in the shop. As it is now, I will just buy the Quartermaster Claus General and the 2x Recycling Manufactorys since I already got the rest of the shop items last year and spend the remaining presents on Grout. I don't have any ideas what to put instead in the merchant though.

    I'd like to see it would be possible to get a 2nd Rarity Provision House now with all the book recipes that takes forever to produce.

    And the generals, my eyes are on the Champion Anslem due to how I play.
    Last edited by apati; 26.10.16 at 13:59.

  10. #50
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    Any chance it would be considered to make the other epic generals available for grabbing in some kind of extended quest chain (by extended I mean few months of grinding stuff, just so the effort/ reward ratio is on acceptable level)?

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